Why a grand? Why a digital?

Lets talk about digital vs "analog" piano here instead, and not in "Whats the best song/music for a beginner to learn"

I dont have a grand, never played a grand, but I've like "touching it" close. I've played several different piano's.

What I really miss on a real piano/grand is the ability to bend strings, most digital piano's got a pitch bender.
Maybe not usefull for the average pianist, or classical, but I couldn't possibly play Canon Rock without it.
Ofcourse, you can just go from C to D ( two half steps ), but you can't possibly get it to sound like a bend.
And with a digital you can play late since you dont disturb people, if you have headphones.

The good thing with a real piano is the power it got, you feel it vibrate, and the sound is right out of the box.
A digital usually have semi-weighted or fully weighted keys, that's good, but there's still no strings.

No strings = No tuning, and that's a + .
No strings = You can't feel the vibration, - .


There is good and bad things with both analog and digital.

I think the main reason with getting a real piano is that it is Real. It is you who make the music from wood, and strings and yourselfe. With a digital piano you play trough a computer. The creation is manipulatet.

That is why I will get a real piano after a while. Maby in 2-3 years, when I got a solid job, my own place and so on

And up til the last years, none of the digital pianos could match the real piano. But now the technology is really comming along, and therfor I think familys and those who just want to play for fun, and not put serious work into it, bye a digital piano.

But players like Andrew, I think... Would not have bought Only a digital piano. But, I know he is wishing for a digital piano as a second one.

This is just my opinion and thoughts without no facts or research. I might be very wrong

Well, when it comes to synthesizers, I prefer analog. Why? Because analog is simply more "warmer" and "vintage" then new synthesizers. Minimoog Voyager, Korg MS-20, Korg MS-2000, Korg Polysix, Yamaha CS-80, and so on are perfect examples of analog synths.

When it comes to digital pianos, I'd definitely prefer a real acoustic grand piano instead. Why? Because not only do grands have strings, but digital piano's are incomparable when you're comparing them to grand. I'd love to own a grand and a digital, but both would be used separately for different usage. However, digital pianos have some advantages that grand pianos don't have, most of them have MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface), many voices to choose from, and a lot of features to play around with. In this case, I wouldn't mind owning both. A digital and a grand.

Jordan wrote:Well, when it comes to synthesizers, I prefer analog. Why? Because analog is simply more "warmer" and "vintage" then new synthesizers. Minimoog Voyager, Korg MS-20, Korg MS-2000, Korg Polysix, Yamaha CS-80, and so on are perfect examples of analog synths.

When it comes to digital pianos, I'd definitely prefer a real acoustic grand piano instead. Why? Because not only do grands have strings, but they're are incomparable when you're comparing them to digital pianos. I'd love to own a grand and a digital, but both would be used separately for different usage. However, digital pianos have some advantages that a grand doesn't have, which most of them have MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface), many voices to choose from, and a lot of features to play around with. In this case, I wouldn't mind owning both. A digital and a grand.

What a dilemma building over here... owning both might sound the best idea if you are rich which I am not.
The reason I never got a synthesizer instead of a piano and try to learn it because my ear screams listening to the voices of those so much beloved vintage of yours. It is nothing close to the nice twinkling sound of a piano.
As Thomandy said the time has arrived brothers and sisters for digital versions because now their technology is getting pretty close. I feel really lucky that I can have an instrument soon ... for a price a student can afford ( Only the 1/10 of the price of your digital piano Thomandy )

In my playing level this equipment is going to serve me well for years until the new digitals will be even better. Im late to be a professional so I dont necessarry need a grand piano anyway... I will just train myself so whenever I can get close to a grand I can show that I actually can play something nice on it I can save money not paying for tuning all the time.
I will love to grab my toy and play in front of the computer or even attach it to the computer. Headphones are definitely an advantage too... I will only practice without it whenever I mastered a piece
I like to think of a grand as a dream-never-come-true. Sometimes those dreams worth more when not fullfilled... better not having than having one and be a slave to pay for it

maggiekedves wrote:Headphones are definitely an advantage too... I will only practice without it whenever I mastered a piece

Haha.... That's exactly what I do, you dont need to show everybody else that you play bad

lol wow, this thread progressed fast!

I feel like everyone said anything I could've said already!

(that's probably good because i need to keep the typing down as much as possible)

i've been practising piano much much more these days because i've got some stuff i need to play in june

I'm starting to feel guilty that I haven't made a real lesson in like...almost a month and a half now? jeeez I REALLY gotta get one together. I'm thinking of doing a short tutorial on how to play the easy parts of fur elise Another lesson might be done on transposition....but i'll need to get a whiteboard for that... ^_^

maggiekedves wrote:

Jordan wrote:Well, when it comes to synthesizers, I prefer analog. Why? Because analog is simply more "warmer" and "vintage" then new synthesizers. Minimoog Voyager, Korg MS-20, Korg MS-2000, Korg Polysix, Yamaha CS-80, and so on are perfect examples of analog synths.

When it comes to digital pianos, I'd definitely prefer a real acoustic grand piano instead. Why? Because not only do grands have strings, but they're are incomparable when you're comparing them to digital pianos. I'd love to own a grand and a digital, but both would be used separately for different usage. However, digital pianos have some advantages that a grand doesn't have, which most of them have MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface), many voices to choose from, and a lot of features to play around with. In this case, I wouldn't mind owning both. A digital and a grand.

What a dilemma building over here... owning both might sound the best idea if you are rich which I am not.
The reason I never got a synthesizer instead of a piano and try to learn it because my ear screams listening to the voices of those so much beloved vintage of yours. It is nothing close to the nice twinkling sound of a piano.
As Thomandy said the time has arrived brothers and sisters for digital versions because now their technology is getting pretty close. I feel really lucky that I can have an instrument soon ... for a price a student can afford ( Only the 1/10 of the price of your digital piano Thomandy )

In my playing level this equipment is going to serve me well for years until the new digitals will be even better. Im late to be a professional so I dont necessarry need a grand piano anyway... I will just train myself so whenever I can get close to a grand I can show that I actually can play something nice on it I can save money not paying for tuning all the time.
I will love to grab my toy and play in front of the computer or even attach it to the computer. Headphones are definitely an advantage too... I will only practice without it whenever I mastered a piece
I like to think of a grand as a dream-never-come-true. Sometimes those dreams worth more when not fullfilled... better not having than having one and be a slave to pay for it

Well, I don't think that you have to be rich to own both a digital piano and a grand. Sure, a grand piano is expensive, you're looking at a few thousands, but if you want both, a grand and a piano then why not? Not all digital piano's are expensive, you can find cheap digital pianos for like $100-$150 or you can go all out and buy something for $400-$500 dollars which I think isn't TOO expensive when you're budgeting. Oh and, I don't think anyone would buy a synthesizer if they're going to use it just for the presets implemented into them, they'd obviously want to program their own patches, sounds, presets, etc. It's totally up to your decision, though. But other than all that, I understand what you're saying and I really think you should appreciate what you currently have. Besides, you're the one playing the piano, the piano doesn't play itself, unless there's a ghost. , hahaha!

I bought my digital piano in November 2008. I went to lots of shops and checked the different models. I was hesitating about the amount of money that I was ready to pay.I finally decided to use about 800€. I chose the DGX-620, because it has many sounds and I was not sure that I was going to play piano. So I had many options on it that I hadn't on the "more lookalike piano" (which was a CLP-220). I thought that I would buy an accoustic piano if I want to go further in piano.

The advantages of digitals which interested me were:
-THE PRICE; nobody here talks about it but they are much cheaper than accoustic pianos.
-you don't have to tune them THAT MEANS THAT THEY ARE ALWAYS IN TUNE! As I have singing lessons and bought that piano to learn singing, I needed an always tuned piano! I also use it to improve my ears for my music theory lessons.
-you can often record a few songs. That helps to judge yourself and to improve in piano. It also allow you to record a song that you have to sing and singing along when you press play.
-you can use headphones (I often play during nights)
-The weight (it's a detail but as I will move within three years, I will be able to transport it by myself without paying a transporter)

The things that I miss:
-My piano is not loud enough, the volume is not really powerful. I think that it's easier to play from pianissimo to fortissimo with an accoustic piano.
-I only have one pedal (which I don't use yet anyway)

However I think that a cheap accoustic piano is about 2500-3000€, it is much to expensive for me.

Yeah. I got a Yamaha Clp 240 and that was between 2500-3000$
Its not cheap, but I dont regret any sec that I bought that instead of a cheap on. The PianoFeeling is great. Even though I havnt played a acoustic piano yet. But the sound is devided into 3 levels, with many different volumes in those 3 levels making the sound very realistic.. And there are 40w speekers, but I uually play with 50% sound or else I can forget about pp hehe At highets volume its: f - ff - fff - ffff - fffff and fffffffffffffffff

Hi every body. I am a new piano fancier. I have always loved piano music from Billy Joel to Elton John to Chopin and Beethoven mostly Chopin.
I listen to piano music all day 90% clasical. when I was a youngster I was given the option of learning to make beautifull sounds with piano. but I was to busey thinking of other things. However I have decided to give learning to understand and communicating with and playing the piano.

I choose to purchase a used digital piano. Its about ten years old and its a technics with alot of bells and whistles that I have no idea on how to use all the features. the music store recommended it because I explained I was new and am not sure how long or if I will play piano for the rest of my life, this is why I purchsed a digital piano. The store also said whenever i wanted to come in and play thiere grand pianos I am welcome to. For a $420.00 piano w/ tax, bench, delivery and headphones, I am trying. If I can learn to play on this I will be very happy, and if I ever become as accomplished as andrew or I am still playing in two years I will invest a grand piano.

Right, I think now I have my own theory about the crucial difference between a digital and a "string" piano (in a moment you'll see why I'm calling them "string" pianos)

I have a book on piano technique (written by my teacher's teacher, really excellent book, unfortunately I think it's only available in Portuguese). It's the book my teacher used to teach me finger technique. And it claims (and I can assert it) that there's a very noticeable difference in sound when you lift your finger from the keyboard to hit the note, as opposed to laying the finger on the keyboard all the time and just pressing the key down to the very bottom (people here with acoustic pianos can test it, I find it more noticeable with chords on the lower or higher keys). My teacher gets really mad at me when I lift my finger, and with reason, as the sound gets much more full, rich and beautiful when you keep your finger on the keyboard.

Now some of you may be wondering how is that even possible? Well, the book have a technical explanation: It says it is not scientifically proved right now what is the exact cause of this, but there's a pretty acceptable theory: when you keep the finger on a key and press it down, the key will activate the mechanism that will make the hammer hit the string, and the string will vibrate (ok, that was common sense). Now, when you lift the finger and strike the key, what happens is: the key was at rest. The finger goes down with great speed and hits the key, which goes down aswell. Now, due to that abrupt change in speed of the key, the key (and thus, the whole mechanism) will have some aberratic vibration of its own, which causes the hammer to vibrate, and hit the string with this additional vibration, and this additional vibration will cause the string to vibrate differently than it would with the other technique I mentioned. That's what causes the difference in sound.

To illustrate, think of this: There's a car stopped on a train railroad, facing the train path. If you put a stopped train behind the car, but touching it, and then start accelerating the train up to 50mph, the car will have been moved perfectly in a straight line together with the train.
Now, picture the same stopped car, same railroad, same train, but the train is now already at 50mph and coming from far behind the car. Well, I don't think I need to tell the amount of vibration the car will suffer when the train hits it

So, what about the digital vs. grand? Well, with a "string" piano, it's you who controls the vibration of the strings (and believe me, even the slightest change in finger movement makes a noticeable difference). Now, on a digital piano, it doesn't matter if you hit the keys with your finger, a real hammer, or even drop a bowling ball on top of it, as all it will do is trigger a pre-recorded sound, and this sound was recorded by someone with a truly great piano to make the best sound possible, but it is not you who controls the string vibration anymore: it was the person who recorded the sound.

I'm feeling some real problems with my digital piano now that I'm trying to do some real interpretation on Chopin pieces. I practice it at home on my digital, and no matter how I play it sounds the same, but when I play on my teacher's upright I can really feel the difference. When I think I'm playing real good on my digital, I play on the upright and it sounds really bad and weird and clumsy. It's really annoying!

Wow, that was one really long post...
To sum it up: Now I want a real "string" piano!

@wamaral.

I can make different sounds on my digital piano, depending on how I press down the keys, its not "always the same sound". So it DOES matter if you hit it with a hammer, bowling ball or just a finger. It DOES sound different. (Maybe you are thinking about non-graded/hammer action keyboards. I can do that with mine too, but that sounds horrible.)

I also want a grand piano. But I wanted that even before I bought my keyboard. There just a few things you need to take into account, and thats size, money, mobility, more money and money.

I now that a digital piano cant keep up with a real piano, but I'd say they are pretty close, the new digital pianos has some great features. Most of them have great samples, from the very best piano's out there, and in addition they do make the keybed as real as possible, and some are made with material that feels like the real deal, instead of plastic, as no real piano comes with plastic ^_^

It usually meassures the preassure you apply, to give you the correct volume, hammernoise, dampernoise etc. Roland has added "aliquot stringing", aka sympathetic string, probably the others have too. And there is alot of fine details in the sound engine.

Digital piano's have come a long way, and most of the real piano's features are included, there is always room for improvement on every feature, but I do think that what's separating a digital vs real today, is the strings and that the sounds are recorded and not comming out of the box. But that's what's makes a digital a digital right? Because it's not the real deal.

Christian wrote:@wamaral.

I can make different sounds on my digital piano, depending on how I press down the keys, its not "always the same sound". So it DOES matter if you hit it with a hammer, bowling ball or just a finger. It DOES sound different. (Maybe you are thinking about non-graded/hammer action keyboards. I can do that with mine too, but that sounds horrible.)

Actually, no, that's the one I'm thinking, it's a picture of my own piano:

It does have real weighted piano keys, with hammer action, and it even simulates the fact that the higher keys are somewhat lighter than the lower keys, because the strings are thinner. That's why I bought it, the action and the feel is very good, very close to a real piano.
I'm sure you can get variations, depending on the speed you hit the key. It holds true on my piano too. However, that hammer vibration I mentioned on my post, I'm absolutely sure you can't control with a digital. A digital will only play back what it's programmed to.
Let me give you an example: if your digital have other sounds than the Grand Piano sound, forget those. Using only the Grand Piano sound, can you make a sound that doesn't sound anything like a Piano? I certainly doubt so, but on a "string" piano you can. I have a recording from Guiomar Novaes where she makes the sound of a group of soldiers marching, on the Piano! That's absolutely amazing, but Guiomar could do it because she mastered the finger technique. And I can tell you, it can never be done on a digital piano.

wamaral wrote:To sum it up: Now I want a real "string" piano!

You can get some decent real piano's, for about 4500usd, and you could probably go as low as 3500usd and get a new real piano, and that's not bad, that's the price of a top digital one. Ofcourse, a cheap piano wont sound as good as an expensive, but it's still real. If you got room for it, you should just sell your digital piano, and buy a real. Even tho I would probably keep the digital because it's portable, and probably got a better sounding piano compared to a cheap real deal ^_^

VictorCS wrote:

wamaral wrote:To sum it up: Now I want a real "string" piano!

You can get some decent real piano's, for about 4500usd, and you could probably go as low as 3500usd and get a new real piano, and that's not bad, that's the price of a top digital one. Ofcourse, a cheap piano wont sound as good as an expensive, but it's still real. If you got room for it, you should just sell your digital piano, and buy a real. Even tho I would probably keep the digital because it's portable, and probably got a better sounding piano compared to a cheap real deal ^_^

DIGITAL PIANOS
Cheap-Poor Digital pianos: 600-1000 Us Dollars
Cheap-Fair Digital pianos: 1000-1600 Us Dollars
Cheap- Good/Ok Digital P: 1600- 2000 Us Dollars

Now, when you get over 2000 us dollars, the quality starts to get pretty good

Very good Digital pianos: 2500 Us Dollars
Awesome Digital pianos: 3000-4000 Us Dollars

There is nearly no difference on the pianos between 3000 UsD and 5000 UsD - Just so you know -

When you get to 6000-7000 Us Dollars, you can stars buying Digital Grand Pianos("Poor" ones)
And got to give 10 000/12 000 + for a Really good Digital Grand Piano


EDIT:
I guess I missed what you guys where talking about the first time I read that Post

VictorCS wrote:

wamaral wrote:To sum it up: Now I want a real "string" piano!

You can get some decent real piano's, for about 4500usd, and you could probably go as low as 3500usd and get a new real piano, and that's not bad, that's the price of a top digital one. Ofcourse, a cheap piano wont sound as good as an expensive, but it's still real. If you got room for it, you should just sell your digital piano, and buy a real. Even tho I would probably keep the digital because it's portable, and probably got a better sounding piano compared to a cheap real deal ^_^

Yeah, I know, I can get one for the same price I bought my digital piano. The upright at my school (not that good, but fair enough) was bought by about 3000 USD (of course, being a school, they get some really nice discount). The thing is, when you live in an apartment and you love to play after midnight, you don't really have a choice but to get a digital piano
But I think I'll get an upright nonetheless. I'll just have to fight the will to play it 3am

wamaral wrote:
Yeah, I know, I can get one for the same price I bought my digital piano. The upright at my school (not that good, but fair enough) was bought by about 3000 USD (of course, being a school, they get some really nice discount). The thing is, when you live in an apartment and you love to play after midnight, you don't really have a choice but to get a digital piano
But I think I'll get an upright nonetheless. I'll just have to fight the will to play it 3am

Hehe, yeah. But playing at night is even more fun so that might be hard

Thomandy wrote:Hehe, yeah. But playing at night is even more fun so that might be hard

Yeah, tell me about it!

That actually reminded me of that scene in the movie The Pianist when he is hiding in an apartment and there's a piano in there, but he can't play it because the neighbours must not know there's someone living there, and he haven't played a piano for years, so he sits at the piano, closes his eyes and moves his fingers without touching the keyboard, pretending he's playing. Man, that movie rocks!


Oh, by the way, if you're reading this and you haven't watched the movie, GO DO IT NOW!!
Really, it's an awesome movie, and of course, the soundtrack alone is worth it

Keep the digital for night, and upright for the day.

wamaral wrote:Right, I think now I have my own theory about the crucial difference between a digital and a "string" piano (in a moment you'll see why I'm calling them "string" pianos)

I have a book on piano technique (written by my teacher's teacher, really excellent book, unfortunately I think it's only available in Portuguese). It's the book my teacher used to teach me finger technique. And it claims (and I can assert it) that there's a very noticeable difference in sound when you lift your finger from the keyboard to hit the note, as opposed to laying the finger on the keyboard all the time and just pressing the key down to the very bottom (people here with acoustic pianos can test it, I find it more noticeable with chords on the lower or higher keys). My teacher gets really mad at me when I lift my finger, and with reason, as the sound gets much more full, rich and beautiful when you keep your finger on the keyboard.

Now some of you may be wondering how is that even possible? Well, the book have a technical explanation: It says it is not scientifically proved right now what is the exact cause of this, but there's a pretty acceptable theory: when you keep the finger on a key and press it down, the key will activate the mechanism that will make the hammer hit the string, and the string will vibrate (ok, that was common sense). Now, when you lift the finger and strike the key, what happens is: the key was at rest. The finger goes down with great speed and hits the key, which goes down aswell. Now, due to that abrupt change in speed of the key, the key (and thus, the whole mechanism) will have some aberratic vibration of its own, which causes the hammer to vibrate, and hit the string with this additional vibration, and this additional vibration will cause the string to vibrate differently than it would with the other technique I mentioned. That's what causes the difference in sound.

To illustrate, think of this: There's a car stopped on a train railroad, facing the train path. If you put a stopped train behind the car, but touching it, and then start accelerating the train up to 50mph, the car will have been moved perfectly in a straight line together with the train.
Now, picture the same stopped car, same railroad, same train, but the train is now already at 50mph and coming from far behind the car. Well, I don't think I need to tell the amount of vibration the car will suffer when the train hits it

So, what about the digital vs. grand? Well, with a "string" piano, it's you who controls the vibration of the strings (and believe me, even the slightest change in finger movement makes a noticeable difference). Now, on a digital piano, it doesn't matter if you hit the keys with your finger, a real hammer, or even drop a bowling ball on top of it, as all it will do is trigger a pre-recorded sound, and this sound was recorded by someone with a truly great piano to make the best sound possible, but it is not you who controls the string vibration anymore: it was the person who recorded the sound.

I'm feeling some real problems with my digital piano now that I'm trying to do some real interpretation on Chopin pieces. I practice it at home on my digital, and no matter how I play it sounds the same, but when I play on my teacher's upright I can really feel the difference. When I think I'm playing real good on my digital, I play on the upright and it sounds really bad and weird and clumsy. It's really annoying!

Wow, that was one really long post...
To sum it up: Now I want a real "string" piano!

From my knowledge, the best of both worlds can be achieved with a good 88key midi keyboard (FATAR, CME to name a few) and a good piano simulator i.e., not a sample player, but more like a sinthesizer.

Try pianoteq. It's modeled after an acustic, from an academic project, with detail to all the nuances from soundboard to hammer noise and sympathetic resonance and the pedal dampens gradually as you lift it (even if you have a on/off pedal the software is smart). And it also has various classical instruments simulations, and many tweaking along with even different tunning options (for exotic tunnings). Try it and tell me what you think.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=pianoteq&aq=-1&oq=pianoteq

Jordan wrote:Well, when it comes to synthesizers, I prefer analog. Why? Because analog is simply more "warmer" and "vintage" then new synthesizers. Minimoog Voyager, Korg MS-20, Korg MS-2000, Korg Polysix, Yamaha CS-80, and so on are perfect examples of analog synths.

When it comes to digital pianos, I'd definitely prefer a real acoustic grand piano instead. Why? Because not only do grands have strings, but digital piano's are incomparable when you're comparing them to grand. I'd love to own a grand and a digital, but both would be used separately for different usage. However, digital pianos have some advantages that grand pianos don't have, most of them have MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface), many voices to choose from, and a lot of features to play around with. In this case, I wouldn't mind owning both. A digital and a grand.

You are quite right -- analog synths have warmth and digital sounds cold (but has other advantages) and these cant be
compared. And these VSTs or whatever VA-s and emulations are like artificial christmas threes if supposed to "emulate" live world. Samples or whatever, forget it!
In fact, electronical thing is electronical.

Playing or listening the LIVE ACOUSTIC MUSIC improves ear.
I repeat -- But we tend to forget usually that grand piano is acoustic (NB! NO WIRES!).

I would add that none of them will be comparable to real acoustic instrument (whatever acoustic instrument!). If you are used to listen headphones and then will listen a live concert then it is like ear training again and very demanded still. IF noticing no difference, on the first day when playing acoustic or electronical version of piano... well then just try again after few months after continuous play of grand piano...You notice the difference becouse the ear has developed dramatically.

Its the same thing as if you are being used with very crappy headphones and then first time listening the music with professional headphones... seems like no difference in first time, but big difference after couple months (or after a week).

BUT... if you are just a beginning to learn piano then its not important if digital or acoustic piano. The important is the
keyboard itself ONLY, absolutely. Just choose the version which is ___comfortable__ to touch and with full weighted keys!
Try the keyboard and dont scale the keyboard by price list. Just keyboard itself. MIDI OUT port is advantage later, well.
Dont go to the cheapest non-weighted keys so named cheap priced "midi controllers" or they will scare you off. When developing to the intermediate level dont be surprised if you think to swap the keyboard even 3..4 times later........

You guys havent heard of the new V-piano then, Rolands masterwork with the 3rd version of their keybed?

V-Piano

I'm still not saying that a digital piano owns a real one, because they are two differnt things, non of them bad...

I have a Grand
When you play you can feel the vibartions when you touch a key the way the sound waves go though the wood soundborad